I do not intend to write many opinion pieces on this blog, but perhaps once in a while I shall adventure into that territory. For now, here are some of my thoughts on lolita brands.
Please go and read Caro-chan's original post, "Making Lolita Brands More Accessible," before reading any further here!
Caro-chan writes of 4 main proposals she would have to improve brands, opening them up from a niche market and making them more accessible for "the typical Lolita". I quote from her original post and offer my own thoughts below.
・ Expand to the West.
First off, I believe they have done this remarkably well in the last few years. Most brands do ship overseas, and many have fluent, even native, English speakers working on this side of their business. It's still a new market that is in testing, so it's risky business for them, but they are doing very well. Keep in mind that the idea of not shipping abroad is not a lolita thing, but a Japanese thing in general - that's why things like J-List exist. Most shops will not ship overseas. It is very different from the way things are done in the US and Europe, etc, where most companies will ship anywhere provided you are willing to pay shipping. On this front, lolita brands are actually quite pioneering.
To respond further to this bullet point, Caro says:
It's no secret that Lolita isn't as big as it used to be in the early 2000's in Japan, the whole fashion seems to have migrated West. There are literally thousands of customers outside of Japan that many brands are cutting themselves off from by not, at the very least, offering overseas shipping.
I adamantly disagree with this statement. Lolita is not dying in Japan - on the contrary, it is increasingly popular. It has never been, nor will it ever be, mainstream. But it is not less prevalent than it has ever been. I cannot figure out where people keep getting this idea!
I agree that not offering overseas shipping does cut off international customers, but as I've already said, most do this.
・ Multiple sizes.
It is true that by offering larger sizes, they would probably get more customers. There is also, however, some worry by brands that offering larger sizes would alienate their main customer base, who would be afraid to be seen in something a "fatty-chan" could also buy, and it would lose exclusivity. Personally, I don't put too much stock in this concern, and I don't think it would actually be a problem, but it is true nonetheless that it is a prevalent worry in the minds of designers.
By the way, as an aside, I remember when I was taking an intro level economics class back in college, my professor telling us a story of a famous, highly-exclusive, highly-successful exercise clothing brand who offered only one size. It was an American brand, if I remember correctly. Despite offering only one size, in America no less, where sizes range much more than in Japan, it became one of the most sought after brands for exercise clothing. Why? Because if you could wear it, it meant you had the Perfect Figure. Girls would squeeze themselves in just to show off that logo that proclaimed "this is the ideal female figure". Now, is that ridiculous, silly, discriminatory? Sure! But it worked, and they had great economic success! Is this what the lolita brands are aiming for? I don't believe so. But I'm sure there's a tiny tinge of this kind of thinking somewhere in the back of someone's mind, and I can't blame them, particularly in the Japanese culture, which is quite different than ours on how they think of weight issues.
So it's not as simple as "more people who can wear the clothes == more people who will buy the clothes". They are concerned about losing current customers by reaching for these new customers.
But nonetheless, I do not believe this is the main reason why they do not offer larger sizes.
Why then? Because the customer base is simply Not There. Or at least they do not see that it is there. Perhaps it is, but they have not noticed yet. But in general, this again goes back to Caro's assumption that lolita is dying in Japan, and that only people abroad wear it anymore. (Okay, Caro never said only, of course, I am exaggerating. But nonetheless, she is coming at this from a viewpoint that lolita is growing abroad and shrinking in Japan, the latter of which I disagree with.) Most of the people who buy from the brands are still Japanese. When I say “most”, I mean a very very large “most”. It is still a Japanese fashion, and the brands cannot be blamed for targeting their Japanese customers as their main customers. And in this group, there are few who require anything larger than a size L. Do they exist? Sure! But they are rare…and while a Japanese girl may be willing to “forgive” a gaijin for being, well, “more to love”, she’s more likely to look down upon another Japanese girl for the same thing. And even the standard size 9, the standard M size, is rather larger than most average clothing you’ll find in a more mainstream boutique in Japan. It may seem small to us, but I could fit into lolita brand clothing easily while I could not walk into any mall and find clothing for work. On average, Japanese lolita brand clothing already runs larger than mainstream boutique clothing.
There is a sideline image (among all the negative images of cutting, self-mutilation, NEET, craziness, otakudom, social anxiety, social incompetence, and just plain bad fashion sense) that exists in mainstream Japan about lolitas, and it is that they are, well, pudgy. Your average lolita in Japan already may have a few pounds on her schoolmates. Not necessarily, to be sure! Lolitas do not like this image (unsurprisingly), so the idea of offering special larger sizes can be quite distasteful to many. So not only do brands not want the risk of making the larger (in their eyes, huge) sizes for the untested international market, but it’s also a risk they are taking domestically as well.
Those are just my thoughts on her "mystery". ;)
・ Friendlier customer service.
I agree with this one whole-heartedly. But I also would say they are working on improving. There can be horror stories told about any store, and in general the lolita brands do have amazing service, but they still do have room to improve. In their defense, I would say that stories like the one Caro linked (which is truly disturbing) are rare, but they should be nonexistent. I hope they will continue to improve. In IW’s defense in particular, they currently have a very lovely girl who is a native speaker (an American, and a friend) working on their international orders, so I am sure that this case would not happen again while she is there. I hope we do not see cases like this again in the future.
・ Lower priced items.
This one confuses me. They do offer inexpensive items. Maybe I haven’t looked recently, but if it is true that most don’t have totes, etc, I bet it’s just at the moment. Or maybe they’ve stopped offering them on the site, and just have them in stores lately? I’m not sure on this one. But you can buy hairbows, accessories, etc for $30 or so, so it’s not like there aren’t inexpensive items to be found. There are pouches, pen cases, and even Bunny Bear straps available on the Baby site for $20-30. And a pair of socks is always affordable and useful and so cute!
I think that the niche for cheapo items is taken up by lucky packs, which are being offered more and more frequently lately. Isn’t a full outfit, with a jumperskirt, blouse, bag, socks, and hairbow for $200 (or $250 or whatever) better than a tote bag for $20 or a tshirt for $40? I’m not sure people would be willing to pay the $15 shipping for a $20 tote bag anyway (at least I wouldn’t!).
Though I suppose it certainly wouldn’t hurt to offer these things, and perhaps people would buy them, and they are fun to have and also fun to give as gifts, so I won’t really disagree with you here. It’s just not a problem I’ve noticed.
I have now explained my thoughts on each of the four main points, but I have not touched the remainder of the post at all yet. I will leave much of it unsaid, as I think my thoughts are explained clearly enough with the above. But there is 1 more line I would like to address. I think the statement I take the most issue with is this one:
Someone really needs to send Mana a note letting him no that he's not actually Christian Dior, no matter how high he prices his clothes.
Why? He doesn’t have to be Christian Dior to have some personal values. There are not only 2 kinds of stores, Dior and Walmart. There are allowed to be, there should be, some in the middle. Some cute little boutiques that do things the way they want to, decide their own business plan, and follow their own hearts. Make their own unique designs and sell them in whatever sizes they want, regardless of whether they will be trendy or not. Regardless of whether someone wants to call them “elitist” or not. Maybe they are! Maybe we like them this way. ;) These are our lolita brands, and I wouldn’t change them for the world. ♥
20 comments:
It's actually pretty awesome to see such a response, even if you are disagreeing! My post was kind of meant as just a pipe dream that popped up in discussion one day, but I think I started rambling about it more than I really meant to. So I hope you don't think I'm hunting down brands and emailing them my demands XD Did I come off as sounding "IF BURANDO DOES THIS THEY WILL BE ROLLING IN THE YENS!" because I also did not mean to sound like that XD it was really meant as a "If these things happened, I bet there would be more people actually able to be Lolitas".
About Lolita still being a big thing in Japan, honestly I did not know that, I've always heard that it's seriously on the decline and just not the cool thing to do any more, so to speak, in Japan. I didn't really mean to suggest (although, now upon reading I am aware that it sounds like it :P) that there aren't any Lolitas in Japan any more, and that the fashion is pretty much only found outside of Japan, just that there seems to be a larger number of Lolitas outside of Japan then there ever was.
About multiple sizes, I have heard what you said about brands (not just Lolita, or even Japanese brands) not wanting to sell larger sized clothes because then larger people will wear them, thus losing some of their image. Even, as you said, that being pudgy is just one of the negative things apparently associated with Lolita, and offering larger sizes would kind of confirm that to the general populace, but I still don't like the idea of places that I throw my money at doing that.
About lower priced items, yes, there are things like head bows and socks, but mostly what I meant was logo items, like the tote, or simple cutsews. Again, kind of just a pipe dream, and it's very true that the shipping would just knock the price back up, but simple logo, or a screen print that ties in with whatever their newest print is, is something I would buy the hell out of XD I just never have the chance because they rarely put them out, or when they do they're just too much to even bother with.
XD the Mana line was mostly just a dig at Moitie as I am not the biggest fan of them pretty much based on the fact that I'll often see something of theirs, think "Oh that's nice... $400!? It's not THAT nice" I am certainly not implying that Moitie prices have to be lowered to compete with Bodyline or anything like that.
Oh, I know it wasn't a proper thesis or anything like that! No worries. I only responded as I did because I felt like a lot of the points were ones I've heard made before, and I wanted to express that they might not all be the god's own truth, you know? Kinda like how you've "always heard that it's seriously on the decline and just not the cool thing to do any more, so to speak, in Japan." I think a couple people said this and then everyone just repeated it until it was the accepted truth, but I don't actually think it has any basis in fact. I thought I'd speak up for once. ;)
I'm not sure if the large size thing is actually on people's minds in a very active way or not, or even to what degree it exists at all even in a very subconscious background way. I was just expressing the possibility that it might be relevant. No one is saying that larger girls can't or shouldn't wear lolita. But it should still be okay to not make super large size clothing without backlash. After all, isn't it true that most American boutiques are the same way? And I'm not even talking about designers...I'm talking about everyone's beloved H&M and Forever 21. Their largest sizes are no larger than brand, and shirred brand often goes larger than their largest sizes. I know this because for a long time I could wear a lot of brand clothing but couldn't buy a skirt or blouse from either of those stores. So I don't actually think brand is all that small.
I'm not actually a fan of Mana or Moitie myself. They do have some lovely items, but it's one of the few brands from which I do not own or even covet a single item. But I still think he has every right to sell his clothing at whatever price, and put forth whatever image, he wants. And the quality really is quite nice with some Moitie items - some of the fabrics do seem to be nicer and pricier than the cottons used by AP and Meta.
I disagree on two things. I think brands aren't making larger sizes and more items with shirring, not because they will lose customers, but because to them, everything sells the same. If a dress that fits a larger size sells out and so does a small dress with no give, they think all is well. They aren't aware of the prices plus size items fetch on the resale market, and how sought after they are used.
The second thing is price. I have seen simple Lolita items from brands, that were over priced beyond the point of believability. Prints that run, items listed with the measurements completely wrong. Heck, I know for a fact that plenty of girls could make brand quality items if they could just get the prints. I mean, many people have said that they have bought off-brand items that were better made. It just doesn't make sense for them to make the items so expensive. i mean, 30 dollars for plastic jewelry?
ooh wow on "customer service horror story" O_o'
I've only ever had minor glitches and they ended with me getting freebies! (Considering a plastic lil candyball of a hair-elastic somehow sells for 20bucks by a brand, that fact it was FREE made it extra special)
I love this posting!!
btw I also always wondered why people say that lolita is dying. I was in tokyo 2008 and there were lolitas all around... I bet nothing has changed. maybe the trends change (gothic turns to sweet, maybe the next big thing is classic with mori girl... dunno), but lolita itself stays ^^
Littlekobaby♥
Thanks for the comment!
I wonder about that though. Not all things sell out, of course. Many things do not. This includes larger size items. In the recent Baby sale in Jan there were several dresses in L or LL size, as well as fully shirred dresses, that were available for half off - because they did not sell out. I scored 3 jumperskirts for only about $100 each that would all fit well over 100cm bust. And even now on IW's website there are blouses that are sold out in M size (and S size) but are available in L size. Granted, IW's L size is still quite small, but nonetheless, thus far it's not proven that larger sizes will sell out immediately, and therefore make their production worthwhile.
Without knowing just how much it costs them to increase size ranges offered, it's hard to say whether there's a business case for them to increase sizing very much. They are increasing sizing more and more, which is great - I mean, even 2 years ago the options we currently have would be unthinkable! - but who knows if it's really in their best interests to offer even larger sizes?
As for price, again, without knowing everything about their business, it's hard to say whether they are overpriced or not. We don't know how much markup there is. I agree that the price of the plastic jewelry is kinda hilarious, but hey - that's one thing that almost always actually sells out. So if it sells, why lower the price? Also, it's important to still keep in mind that the quantity made is still much much less than that made by, say, Claire's. Larger quantities means less cost per item for manufacturing, so of course the price will be higher.
But if we're going to simply discuss how the brands are overpriced in general, that's an age-old issue that will never be agreed upon. You may as well ask why Garcons pants cost $1200 or why a Vivienne t-shirt costs $100, or why a Dior dress costs $30000 (please don't quote me on these prices, I just made them up off the top of my head). But to put it simply, while it is true that some seamstresses can make brand quality items, there's no reason why they don't deserve $300 for their work as well. (And now with Spoonflower, I see no reason why they can't get whatever lovely print they can dream up!) We're paying for the skills and hard work of handmade goods. It's different from the mass production of Walmart. Also, don't forget all the overhead costs of brand - the tea parties, special events, fashion shows, free gifts, customer care...we don't see much of this from abroad, but their main customer base sure does. And it must cost them a pretty penny...or yen. :)
There is room for improvement in their processes (printing process for one!), but overall the quality I have received from my brand items has been lovely - just incredible. I personally think it's well worth the price, but that is something for each individual to decide for themselves.
Chii-chan♥
It was very astonishing indeed! I wonder if she'd have any luck if she tried again to contact them. They were quite bad. But I think this is an outlying data point, not a common experience. I too have had very nice experiences...though somehow I tend to be unlucky with getting presents. T__T Karma coming back to bite me now to make up for all the special service I got when I lived there!
duplica-chan♥
Thanks for reading! I agree with you here. But the idea that "Lolita is dying!!" has been around since at least 2005, hasn't it? And it just keeps growing. I think maybe people just expect to go to Japan and see them EVERYWHERE, and when they don't, they think that lolita must be dying, simply because it is not as prevalent as in their imaginations.
Hello! I really liked reading this post. It was fun, especially when compared to the post over at F*** Yeah Lolita. Things like this are what make Lolita more than just clothes!
However, I was wondering about this statement:
"There is a sideline image (among all the negative images of cutting, self-mutilation, NEET, craziness, otakudom, social anxiety, social incompetence, and just plain bad fashion sense) that exists in mainstream Japan about lolitas, and it is that they are, well, pudgy."
Do you have some sort of proof? Especially for the idea that stereotypes of self-mutilation accompany lolita, but also for the image that Lolitas are chubby. I've never heard anything like that myself...
To love_rev_21♥
Thanks for the comment!
Hmm... Well, proof? Nope. No proof at all. And I don't mean to imply that everyone thinks this about lolitas. But nevertheless, they are all stereotypes. The stereotypes often mimic the stereotypes in our own cultures of gothic youth or any other subculture. I have only anecdotal evidence, only what I have heard myself with my own ears while living in Osaka. As a teacher, I often saw lolita, gothic, punk, and other sub-mainstream fashion groups misunderstood by their own teachers, students singled out and discussed as needing special attention lest they turn out to need special psychological assistance, based primarily (and in some cases, solely) on their fashion choices. I refer mostly to the images of self-mutilation here, rather than weight issues, but it is probably the more interesting of the two, even though less relevant to the main topic of discussion. On the topic of weight, I've heard people talk about this, and I feel like I've read it as well, but I cannot remember where at the moment. I fully understand if you choose to discredit what I've said as I have no evidence, but as this is only a casual opinion piece I'm not too concerned about it. But my statements do stand as my statements, and they are things I've seen and heard expressed as common images of lolita.
It's not an immensely strong image or anything as harsh as "Lolita=cutter" or anything like that, but it does exist, much as "goth = cutter" or "goth = greasy unwashed self-important socially inept friendless geeky teenager who writes bad poetry" exist as images in America. ;) (And of course I don't agree with either, obviously, as I am a Lolita with quite strong goth tendencies myself!)
I enjoyed your article very much!
I think things are fine the way it is now. If comparing to brands like Dior, Lolita brands are quite affordable/reasonable for the details and quality.
Thank you for your honest reply! I'm not planning on discrediting or disregarding anything you said (I have no reason to... =p ). In fact, you stated what you meant very well, and if anything, I'm more inclined to believe/agree with what you said now. I've always been very involved in combating stereotypes within my state, and I love Japanese culture. Seeing the two collide in this way is very interesting for me. Did you notice any other such stereotypes during your stay in Japan?
りあちゃん★へ♥
Thanks for the comment! ♥
I think people have a tendency to forget how much work actually goes into the behind-the-scenes production of value-added brand image and want everything to be like Bodyline. Even if Bodyline were brand quality, which it is not, I still wouldn't want brand to give up all its allure and become more like a Bodyline. It is special to me for all that it encompasses, not just the clothing itself.
To love_rev_21♥
Thanks! :D I'm glad I didn't come across as stating any more than I intended. At the moment I can't really think of anything else I'd add, though, other than of course the ever-present images that lolita=cosplay and lolita=moe maids. XD
Hmmm... this one might be a long shot, but did you hear many negative stereotypes about fans of a girlgroup collective called Hello! Project?
I'm not really into lolita anymore, but I was living in Japan from 2004-2009 and I wanted to second your observation on lolita NOT dying! For a while it might have seemed like it was, but then it re-emerged into what it is now. It's pinker and cuter and sweeter with bigger hair than it ever was... but it's more alive than ever! There was a slump in visual kei-related fashions, when visual kei fans realized they had a better chance at scoring with the bandmen by dressing sexy rather than scary - this was obvious when Marui One, the hub of alternative fashion, got moved into a much smaller building, sharing with regular/athletic fashions. But lolita has since split from visual kei almost completely, and has formed its own subculture, attracting a different group of followers.
I would have to agree with your stereotype of lolitas (being NEETS, cutters, etc) more with the old style of lolita, the gothic kind attached to visual kei. The average Japanese person still has that stereotypical image of visual kei and the fans, even though it has also gone through a major transformation since the turn of the century. Today's average lolita is not the Malice Mizer-listening angsty teen of the late 90s - although most people haven't realized that yet. In an issue of Ageha (the hime-gyaru/kyabajou magazine) a year or so ago, there was an article about lolita and how it's "not scary anymore"! They had some gyaru going into lolita shops to supplement their wardrobes!
To love_rev_21♥
Hmm....that's Morning Musume, right? I'm pretty sure only young girls and middle-aged otaku guys are fans of that, right? I'm not sure if that's just a stereotype or... an actually true stereotype. Either way, I think that's the image, but I think it may actually be one of the more accurate ones? ;)
To Krys♥
Wow, you were actually there a year longer than I was! I was there was 2004-2008. T__T haha! Lolita definitely fell out of mainstream (well, it was never mainstream) when the visual fans turned to gyaru, but most of my friends weren't so much the visual fans anyway, but more the underground gothic stuff, so they were as lolita as they ever were. I never did make it over to the new Marui, since they moved some time in 2008 (wasn't it?) and I actually lived in Osaka, so my last trip to Tokyo they were still in the old big building. It was always shared with other fashions but they did have their own floor...or three. ;) I'm not sure what it's like now. Nice if it's less connected to visual now..I was never a fan and could never figure out why random lolitas would ask me what bands I liked...and they didn't understand when I answered Depeche Mode. XD
I think it takes a while for stereotypes to die out, especially amongst the mainstream population who don't pay attention to subcultures at all (particularly an older generation). But it's great that they are turning into a happier image. XD I think the gyaru have been shopping at AP at least for a while. I actually mentioned that in my hime-gyaru post back in February when I started this blog - I think it was my first post besides the intro post! XD Since the first essay in "Trivia for Maidens" is about that. :)
Thank you so much for your comment and insight!! ♥
Thanks for your response :)
Ohh I forgot about the second move! You're right! It was in the winter of 2008-2009 I think. I only visited the new building once. What I was talking about was the first move.. they used to reside in a big blue building further away from the station (it's now some big second-hand store for real burando like Louis Vuitton and stuff lol). It was huge and had a ton of stores all together - like it really was the mecca for alternative fashion, they had goth and lolita and all the sub-genres, divided by floor. They moved from that building to the one they shared with Marui Young at the beginning of 2005 (just checked the wiki lol, it was there from 1998-2005). So if you think the one in Marui Young was big, you should have seen the old one! XD I think the new one's an improvement, it seems like it's back towards the old days with a lot more stores in one place.
I had traveled to Japan a bunch since 2000, and did a summer exchange in Osaka in 2001. The big 3-nen-2-kumi shop was in Osaka! I remember at that time, the only stores they had were in Amemura and they were the old super frilly velvety places.. I'm trying to remember the names and failing XD I wonder if old school Pretty was one of them?
I'll have to go look up your hime-gyaru post.. I am always morbidly fascinated by them, lol!
A bit late to the party here, but I totally agree with all this. Lolita certainly doesn't seem to be dying in Japan, except in the Visual Kei scene (to echo what Krys said).
I can back up what you're saying about the image of lolitas being crazy/otaku/chubby because I've seen that not only in anime and manga but in Japanese people's conversations on the internet about lolita. I've even seen them say it suits chubby girls better, LOL People in the West just don't get how small normal girls really are in Japan. Otherwise they would realise that brand sizing is already very generous (for Japan).
And considering the small runs they make, I don't think they could be offering prices any lower unless they had a Bodyline-style business model. Compared to boutiques in Australia, they are still reasonably priced for what they sell!
Krys♥
Wow, you are such a wealth of information! I never went to MaruiYoung often, just a few times. I think it was the smallest one then, from what you are saying...the one that was there from 2005 to at least 2007 or 2008. It had shoes on the 4th or 5th level, then a gothic/punkish floor, and at the top a sweet floor with Kera and Meta and Baby and Heart E and ETc in the back! Wow. The older one must have been HUGE!
You know, I'm not really sure what ３年２組 really is! My last homeroom class was 3-2 so someone brought in a bunch of stickers with that on it and we used them all the time, so I was vaguely aware of something like that existing, but I don't really know what it is. Any info you have about it would be very appreciated! :D
I really wouldn't know what was around back then...I only moved to Japan in late 2004, and I wasn't into lolita until 2005. Wow, I'm astounded and impressed by how long you've been around the scene and how much you know! :D I hope you'll stick around and comment more! Do you have a blog or LJ yourself? Even if you don't wear lolita yourself anymore, I'm sure we could find plenty to talk about! ♥♥
Xelyna♥
Agreed! I can't speak for boutiques in Australia, and I can't even really speak for them in the US either, because this style of boutique is quite rare unless you are in a big city (like New York), but I think you could probably find quite similar levels of clothing, with similar prices, in any trendy city in any country, not just Japan!
I have an LJ, my username is agentscuiy. Feel free to add me! (Just comment when you do cuz a lot of bots add me and I don't know who's a real person!) I don't have a blog, but I have a Flickr with a lot of photos from various aspects of my life, including Japan. http://www.flickr.com/photos/kitties-on-my-head/sets/ Still working on uploading old ones :)
Oh and about 3年2組, I strained my brain and somehow remembered the lolita sub-brand of it was called "Fairy Moon". There are few traces of it left on the internet, but some people are selling 3年2組 clothes (mostly the kids' stuff) on Yahoo Auctions if you search for it. There's also a Poupee Girl category for the brand, and there's some Fairy Moon stuff mixed in http://pupe.ameba.jp/brand/3nen2kumi (Do you use Poupee btw? :D) One of the items is a frilly old school loli skirt posted in 2007, and the girl says もう７年くらい前の服ですね lol.. so yeah, it's old!
I just read this for the first time and you are sosososo right! I have to start following your blog <3
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